I am not at all sure you made a case here. The BLM is charged with overseeing huge swaths of Federal Land, and is, as such not a profit driven entity, thus not "corporate greed driven". You have alluded to this throughout your article, yet have given no proof or example of mis-appropriation of funds. You have even given kudos to some of the management amenities, such as a very precise map.
I imagine the hard working public employees who help to administer this treasure would have preferred a different management model, however the "wisdom'" of Rep. Regula saw to the debacle of RAT be continued in the 2005 Omnibus Bill.
While I agree that this is poor legislation, and that it is possibly even being mis-used by the Forest Service in High Impact Recreation Areas, your article does not give sufficient background or perspective, to actually inform the reader to the issue, and as such becomes an editorial, with lots of red ink.
If you disagree with the Libertarian model of privatizing Federal land holdings then by all means, hold the administrators of these lands to account, and make them follow the actual spirit of the RAT; which is to prohibit agencies from charging fees "For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services." I will join you in that fight. But as with most modern legislation, there are enough backdoors and loop holes to drive an entire corporation through, which is the "wave" of the future.
I for one am not opposed to the use of SP as an editorial forum, however, I find your writing about as balanced as Fox News. If you wanted to present balance, an interview with the employees of the BLM Kanab office would have helped, you were after all right there, and with "journalistic" intent.
I think however that your post has brought to light an issue that has been forced on an unwilling population, and as such may spark an interest and get people involved.
I have included your text in red and then responded to it.
I am not at all sure you made a case here. The BLM is charged with overseeing huge swaths of Federal Land, and is, as such not a profit driven entity, thus not "corporate greed driven". You have alluded to this throughout your article, yet have given no proof or example of mis-appropriation of funds.
Where ever fees are collected, the entities, government or private, are reluctant to discuss where the funds are going. This has been historically typical and documented on the WSNF site. One might get a better answer from the BLM. Don't hold your breath. (See below about employee comments).
hold the administrators of these lands to account
The WSNFC is trying to do just that. It's an ever-ongoing challenge, with several court cases pending.
But as with most modern legislation, there are enough backdoors and loop holes to drive an entire corporation through, which is the "wave" of the future.
We know this all too well and it goes on constantly. This behavior is what allows the various entities to slip through the FLREA law.
an interview with the employees of the BLM Kanab office would have helped
In my past experience in interviewing employees, government or private, they were reluctant to be interviewed or flat refused, so I don't even try anymore. They're between a rock and a hard place, doing what their superiors have told them to do.
you were after all right there, and with "journalistic" intent.
While a balanced report would have been nice, I admitted in the beginning paragraph that the report is not balanced and the more I wrote, the more I realized it would not be balanced, but firmly planted in the No-Fee camp. Given my experience with past employees, if I were to be offered an interview, I would accept (not that I'd use it, mind you-it would depend on the pertinence and credibility of the content). I doubt anyone will come running for the chance.
I think however that your post has brought to light an issue that has been forced on an unwilling population, and as such may spark an interest and get people involved.
That's the main idea. We're still amazed at the amount of apathy and indifference we encounter.
gonna get only worse in the near future. The United States and the states within are insolvent and unwilling to increase taxes, so the governments will be relying on the fees ever more. The fees are more expensive to collect with all the requisit permit offices and toll booths and LEOs and private contractors managing the websites, and some collected fees are wasted anyway, so the population will end up paying more in fees than it used to cost when taxes covered it.
And that's only the beginning. Wait till the govt. starts divesting of its real estate to generate cash flow. Who knows, maybe the whole states will be offered for sale (Hawaii to the Chinese, anyone? Solves Obama's birthplace issue too, in one fell swoop)
Virtually everything in America is all about money these days. Where ever there seems to be a problem, just follow the money trail. Sometimes its about as hard to follow federal (or state) money as it is to try to trace laundered money or Swiss bank accounts. I wish you the best of luck in trying to track use fee monies. I, too, vehemently object to fees for so many areas in the U.S.
Quoting a few famous folks: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin and “The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt.
I applaud your stance on this issue. The country is certainly headed in a privatizing everything / double taxation direction, and there is a great need for citizens to speak up. THANKS for your involvement.
May we all continue to hike in and enjoy America's gorgeous lands!
“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt.
I love it! Thanks Bob for taking the time to comment, and your support!
Aaron, Thank you. Please continue informing the visitors to these places on what a scam these fees are. And I would urge all SP readers to resist paying every time they have the chance. Let everyone within the "power structure" know, you'll not pay additional fess for our land, a land we are taxed on already. I will never pay their fees. Most of the time, one can park 1/4 mile away from a trailhead and avoid any problems. If not, write me a ticket, ask me if I care.
Until the recent RED ROCK PASS CONTROVERSY in Arizona, the FS has not charged anyone for failure to pay a fee, because they know it's wrong. The recent ruling on the Red Rocks matter reaffirms this fact. The fee program is being managed illegally with corporate interests breathing deep down the FS' backside. The whole thing is a fleecing of the taxpayers and in the current state of affairs, just plain wrong. Kudos to your attitude and thanks for your comment!
I've hiked throughout the Alps of Europe, and never encountered a single government fee. The closest I came was paying for parking in municipal or privately-owned parking lots or state-owned railway station parking lots. And nobody ever hassled me if I bivied out instead of sleeping in a subsidized club hut.
So it's remarkable that in the land of the free, we put up with government barriers to simple access so that we can walk around OUR land. It's time for reasonable folks to politely and non-violently ignore these immoral and illegal rules. Imagine if nobody bothered to stop in Kanab to watch the guy spin the basket with the ball, hoping that they get lucky. Instead, imagine if they just headed out to The Wave, and dared the law enforcement specialist friendly forest ranger to come on out and give them all tickets. Do it a week running, and watch the local federal prosecutor go into her see no evil mode.
Imagine if Wave hikers set up their own voluntary fund to offset the costs of regular trash cleanup and trail maintenance. Very likely such a group could quickly do more to support reasonable management of the resource, for a fraction of the money, than the USFS has with all the hundreds of thousands of dollars it has collected. How's that going to look in court, when those same hikers are hauled up on charges of not funding a BLM or USFS slush fund?
Judging by what I have witnessed, use fees are often used to hire self-financing hourly employees to do the scut work of collecting the fees AND do those things that the career civil servants don't want to do themselves: take out the garbage, answer the phone, clean the office after the regional headquarters decides to defund the cleaning contractor, etc. Also makes a nice slush fund for office parties and parting gifts for the careerists.
As Aaron has made clear, in most cases land manager user fees are unenforceable, and they only work because most people are decent and law-abiding, and trust their government. I guess most folks don't understand that most user fees are simply a protection racket.
The best way to deal with these fees is to not pay them. If ticketed, politely refuse to cooperate with the ticketer. Don't provide personal information, unless they are a sworn federal law enforcement agent, and have the credentials to prove it. Don't show ID in any case; you are not required to carry it in the United States. Remonstrate with them about the illegality and moreover, the immorality of the law, so they understand that they are cooperating, in a small way, with oppression (it always starts small, doesn't it?). If you actually have to go to court (unlikely, in my experience) contest it, drag it out as long as possible, and consult with local, regional and national user groups to get legal advice and representation. And call and write your congressional delegation and state authorities. Ask your governor to intervene. Don't leave a stone unturned, and make sure that if you do have to go to court, you get the word out to everyone for miles around who doesn't like the user fees and wants a way to register their displeasure. And don't forget the media! A few shouters with signs in front of the courthouse and a well-reasoned, facttual press release will work wonders for exposure. The bottom line is that the mechanism for actual enforcement of these fees is a federal court system which really has better things to do, and knows it. The land managers will get told, in short order, to go piss up a rope, especially once the prosecutorial staff read the law.
Bottom line, is, respect the land and other users, and you will be firmly on the side of right and good. And remember, not paying an illegal fee is disrespectful to nobody.
Great trip report Aaron. We all appreciate your advocacy and common sense.
My, what a well written comment! I can't possibly add anything except my thanks for your fine contribution concerning the matter. It's good advice for all concerned-and that means every American out there. Well said, man! Thanks again.
Scott Pierce - Apr 20, 2011 12:06 am - Voted 10/10
T Sharp - Apr 6, 2011 2:15 am - Hasn't voted
Aaron;I am not at all sure you made a case here. The BLM is charged with overseeing huge swaths of Federal Land, and is, as such not a profit driven entity, thus not "corporate greed driven". You have alluded to this throughout your article, yet have given no proof or example of mis-appropriation of funds. You have even given kudos to some of the management amenities, such as a very precise map.
I imagine the hard working public employees who help to administer this treasure would have preferred a different management model, however the "wisdom'" of Rep. Regula saw to the debacle of RAT be continued in the 2005 Omnibus Bill.
While I agree that this is poor legislation, and that it is possibly even being mis-used by the Forest Service in High Impact Recreation Areas, your article does not give sufficient background or perspective, to actually inform the reader to the issue, and as such becomes an editorial, with lots of red ink.
If you disagree with the Libertarian model of privatizing Federal land holdings then by all means, hold the administrators of these lands to account, and make them follow the actual spirit of the RAT; which is to prohibit agencies from charging fees "For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services." I will join you in that fight. But as with most modern legislation, there are enough backdoors and loop holes to drive an entire corporation through, which is the "wave" of the future.
I for one am not opposed to the use of SP as an editorial forum, however, I find your writing about as balanced as Fox News. If you wanted to present balance, an interview with the employees of the BLM Kanab office would have helped, you were after all right there, and with "journalistic" intent.
I think however that your post has brought to light an issue that has been forced on an unwilling population, and as such may spark an interest and get people involved.
Aaron Johnson - Apr 8, 2011 1:01 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Aaron;Hi Tim-
I have included your text in red and then responded to it.
I am not at all sure you made a case here. The BLM is charged with overseeing huge swaths of Federal Land, and is, as such not a profit driven entity, thus not "corporate greed driven". You have alluded to this throughout your article, yet have given no proof or example of mis-appropriation of funds.
Where ever fees are collected, the entities, government or private, are reluctant to discuss where the funds are going. This has been historically typical and documented on the WSNF site. One might get a better answer from the BLM. Don't hold your breath. (See below about employee comments).
hold the administrators of these lands to account
The WSNFC is trying to do just that. It's an ever-ongoing challenge, with several court cases pending.
But as with most modern legislation, there are enough backdoors and loop holes to drive an entire corporation through, which is the "wave" of the future.
We know this all too well and it goes on constantly. This behavior is what allows the various entities to slip through the FLREA law.
an interview with the employees of the BLM Kanab office would have helped
In my past experience in interviewing employees, government or private, they were reluctant to be interviewed or flat refused, so I don't even try anymore. They're between a rock and a hard place, doing what their superiors have told them to do.
you were after all right there, and with "journalistic" intent.
While a balanced report would have been nice, I admitted in the beginning paragraph that the report is not balanced and the more I wrote, the more I realized it would not be balanced, but firmly planted in the No-Fee camp. Given my experience with past employees, if I were to be offered an interview, I would accept (not that I'd use it, mind you-it would depend on the pertinence and credibility of the content). I doubt anyone will come running for the chance.
I think however that your post has brought to light an issue that has been forced on an unwilling population, and as such may spark an interest and get people involved.
That's the main idea. We're still amazed at the amount of apathy and indifference we encounter.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, Tim!
Aaron
Dmitry Pruss - Apr 6, 2011 6:08 pm - Voted 10/10
Valid points, but it'sgonna get only worse in the near future. The United States and the states within are insolvent and unwilling to increase taxes, so the governments will be relying on the fees ever more. The fees are more expensive to collect with all the requisit permit offices and toll booths and LEOs and private contractors managing the websites, and some collected fees are wasted anyway, so the population will end up paying more in fees than it used to cost when taxes covered it.
And that's only the beginning. Wait till the govt. starts divesting of its real estate to generate cash flow. Who knows, maybe the whole states will be offered for sale (Hawaii to the Chinese, anyone? Solves Obama's birthplace issue too, in one fell swoop)
Aaron Johnson - Apr 8, 2011 1:08 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Valid points, but it'sI'd rather not sell off Hawaii. It's a NICE place. Maybe we could sell North Dakota to Canada!
gliderman - Apr 7, 2011 3:45 pm - Voted 10/10
Way to go Aaron!Virtually everything in America is all about money these days. Where ever there seems to be a problem, just follow the money trail. Sometimes its about as hard to follow federal (or state) money as it is to try to trace laundered money or Swiss bank accounts. I wish you the best of luck in trying to track use fee monies. I, too, vehemently object to fees for so many areas in the U.S.
Quoting a few famous folks: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin and “The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt.
I applaud your stance on this issue. The country is certainly headed in a privatizing everything / double taxation direction, and there is a great need for citizens to speak up. THANKS for your involvement.
May we all continue to hike in and enjoy America's gorgeous lands!
Bob T. (another who often speaks his mind)
Aaron Johnson - Apr 8, 2011 1:11 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Way to go Aaron!“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any controlling private power.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt.
I love it! Thanks Bob for taking the time to comment, and your support!
Aaron
asmrz - Apr 11, 2011 10:04 am - Voted 10/10
Fight fees everywhereAaron, Thank you. Please continue informing the visitors to these places on what a scam these fees are. And I would urge all SP readers to resist paying every time they have the chance. Let everyone within the "power structure" know, you'll not pay additional fess for our land, a land we are taxed on already. I will never pay their fees. Most of the time, one can park 1/4 mile away from a trailhead and avoid any problems. If not, write me a ticket, ask me if I care.
Aaron Johnson - Apr 11, 2011 10:35 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Fight fees everywhereUntil the recent RED ROCK PASS CONTROVERSY in Arizona, the FS has not charged anyone for failure to pay a fee, because they know it's wrong. The recent ruling on the Red Rocks matter reaffirms this fact. The fee program is being managed illegally with corporate interests breathing deep down the FS' backside. The whole thing is a fleecing of the taxpayers and in the current state of affairs, just plain wrong. Kudos to your attitude and thanks for your comment!
Scott Pierce - Apr 19, 2011 1:54 pm - Voted 10/10
Civil DisobedienceI've hiked throughout the Alps of Europe, and never encountered a single government fee. The closest I came was paying for parking in municipal or privately-owned parking lots or state-owned railway station parking lots. And nobody ever hassled me if I bivied out instead of sleeping in a subsidized club hut.
So it's remarkable that in the land of the free, we put up with government barriers to simple access so that we can walk around OUR land. It's time for reasonable folks to politely and non-violently ignore these immoral and illegal rules. Imagine if nobody bothered to stop in Kanab to watch the guy spin the basket with the ball, hoping that they get lucky. Instead, imagine if they just headed out to The Wave, and dared the law enforcement specialist friendly forest ranger to come on out and give them all tickets. Do it a week running, and watch the local federal prosecutor go into her see no evil mode.
Imagine if Wave hikers set up their own voluntary fund to offset the costs of regular trash cleanup and trail maintenance. Very likely such a group could quickly do more to support reasonable management of the resource, for a fraction of the money, than the USFS has with all the hundreds of thousands of dollars it has collected. How's that going to look in court, when those same hikers are hauled up on charges of not funding a BLM or USFS slush fund?
Judging by what I have witnessed, use fees are often used to hire self-financing hourly employees to do the scut work of collecting the fees AND do those things that the career civil servants don't want to do themselves: take out the garbage, answer the phone, clean the office after the regional headquarters decides to defund the cleaning contractor, etc. Also makes a nice slush fund for office parties and parting gifts for the careerists.
As Aaron has made clear, in most cases land manager user fees are unenforceable, and they only work because most people are decent and law-abiding, and trust their government. I guess most folks don't understand that most user fees are simply a protection racket.
The best way to deal with these fees is to not pay them. If ticketed, politely refuse to cooperate with the ticketer. Don't provide personal information, unless they are a sworn federal law enforcement agent, and have the credentials to prove it. Don't show ID in any case; you are not required to carry it in the United States. Remonstrate with them about the illegality and moreover, the immorality of the law, so they understand that they are cooperating, in a small way, with oppression (it always starts small, doesn't it?). If you actually have to go to court (unlikely, in my experience) contest it, drag it out as long as possible, and consult with local, regional and national user groups to get legal advice and representation. And call and write your congressional delegation and state authorities. Ask your governor to intervene. Don't leave a stone unturned, and make sure that if you do have to go to court, you get the word out to everyone for miles around who doesn't like the user fees and wants a way to register their displeasure. And don't forget the media! A few shouters with signs in front of the courthouse and a well-reasoned, facttual press release will work wonders for exposure. The bottom line is that the mechanism for actual enforcement of these fees is a federal court system which really has better things to do, and knows it. The land managers will get told, in short order, to go piss up a rope, especially once the prosecutorial staff read the law.
Bottom line, is, respect the land and other users, and you will be firmly on the side of right and good. And remember, not paying an illegal fee is disrespectful to nobody.
Great trip report Aaron. We all appreciate your advocacy and common sense.
Aaron Johnson - Apr 19, 2011 6:03 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Civil DisobedienceHi Scott-
My, what a well written comment! I can't possibly add anything except my thanks for your fine contribution concerning the matter. It's good advice for all concerned-and that means every American out there. Well said, man! Thanks again.
Scott Pierce - Apr 20, 2011 12:06 am - Voted 10/10
Re: Civil DisobedienceRight on Aaron...keep the faith, brother.