John Duffield - Dec 6, 2010 1:43 pm - Voted 10/10
A Good ReadBut wouldn't the Indians of 100 years ago have been the first to say that the concept of man owning a section of the earth would've been meaningless? I also fail to see how climbing this in any way violates its "sacredness". The earth is here for millions of years, man but a passing phase.
Of course it isn't the first time this particular controversy with this rock has occurred on this site.
The self righteousness above seems to outdo that on the forums. Though it's counterbalanced by the spray. Whatever. A great TR all things considered. Gets you, hooks you and I sure didn't put it down to be finished later. The photos are excellent as well.
I myself have intruded into private land and recently because what was there was was too excellent to pass up on. Like you, I didn't alter it in anyway, so I'm good with it. Unlike you, lol, I was careful not to plaster it on the internet. But whatever. For me not to judge.
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 2:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: A Good Read“But wouldn’t the Indians of 100 years ago have been the first to say that the concept of man owning a section of the earth would’ve been meaningless?”
Probably. But I am pretty sure that most peaceful inter-tribal affairs were likely political and respectful. If a neighboring tribe wanted to take an animal from their land, harvest medicinal plants, or cross sacred ground, I suspect it would have been favorable to ask permission first.
I assume the tribe doesn’t feel they own the land but feel that to pay respect to sacred things (such as Ship Rock) they offer it by staying off of it. To ask permission would have been respectful of the tribe’s reverence to the rock.
In this day and age though – who knows? I have not personally been on the Navajo Nation and don’t pretend to know their policies for sure. I just assume - everything upfront, and be respectful - first and foremost!
Liba Kopeckova - Dec 6, 2010 3:17 pm - Voted 1/10
wow - an adventure and disrespectWell written story, a great accomplishment, but I was thinking throughout the story where is this leading to? Are we encouraging breaking rules, and showing more disrespect to Native Americans? I really enjoyed reading all the comments...
I lived in New Mexico for 15 years, and if you guys were so set up on climbing their secret rock, you should have gained their trust, and they would allow it.
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 4:44 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: CuriousYeah I was looking for this. Wanted to see what type of land it was. Indian land is not usually as simple as "privately owned." If it is indeed Navajo Trust land, then that means the federal government (US) holds the title but the beneficiary is the Navajo Nation (not an individual). Where did you find that Frank? I would be curious to see any maps you've found defining personal trust/navajo trust/etc. boundaries.
Liba Kopeckova - Dec 6, 2010 9:12 pm - Voted 1/10
Re: .I am sorry for commenting on this one - but I am a foreigner who never took English, and this site is very international. We should be tolerant of some spelling/grammar errors. Or, perhaps we should be publishing in different languages?
m_dquist - Dec 6, 2010 4:38 pm - Hasn't voted
My Thoughts On All ThisTo be honest, I don't really care what you guys think about my having climbed Ship Rock. That wasn't the point of my post. I'm not trying to impress any of you by "spraying" or "bragging", I'll likely never meet any of you. I simply posted a story for you to read and think what you will of and in doing so, I've given all of the naysayers a forum to voice their opinions, dissenting or otherwise. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and felt like sharing it. My only hope is that you all have been entertained.
I find the argument that I should have climbed it and not posted this amusing. What makes that any better? Climbing Ship Rock is against the law, posting an account of it (or writing up anything, for that matter) is not. Why not be honest about our ascent? There are plenty of other records on the internet of people climbing Ship Rock despite the ban, and these climbers and any others who did not document their ascents are all guilty of the exact same crime.
As far as upsetting the locals, and thereby tightening the access restrictions, I highly doubt that Summitpost is where they are looking to see if anyone climbed Ship Rock. Our headlamps were plainly visible while descending, yet there was no party there to arrest us at the base. If you guys think that Ship Rock doesn't get climbed frequently you are kidding yourselves, and I highly doubt that the posting of this trip report will have any bearing on the ban on climbing on the Navajolands. Ship Rock sees many ascents a year. The local authorities have to know this is the case, yet there is no signage of the ban whatsoever, and seemingly no enforcement.
I feel worse about bolting than I do about trespassing, but it seemed reasonable to me to place the bolts we did, given the nature of the existing rap route. I know this is a slippery slope, but if someone doesn't like there being a bolted rap route, they can go chop the entire thing, forcing future climbers to descend the same way the first ascentionists did.
I am a little disappointed about the report being taken down from the front page, but that is no more my decision to make than it is anyone else's decision where I decide to climb. Whoever was moderating caved to the pressure of a few people who didn't like it, but there were plenty of responses of approval. The trip was front page material before everyone saw it, and has not changed since then. Smells like censorship to me. Should we have a code of morality for material submitted to Summitpost? I guess that can be the next topic for debate....
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 4:56 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisI appreciate your response here. I have certainly been entertained even if I disagree with your decision to climb the route. The report was well written, exciting and displayed great pictures.
Yeah I agree - climb it but don't post? Right! Climbers would still be guilty of what I disagree with. I appreciate you guys being honest about it. It certainly created a discussion very pertinent to climbing.
And yes putting this back up on the front page helps insure raising the awareness of such issues. I would support it going back on the front page.
CSUMarmot - Dec 6, 2010 5:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: My Thoughts On All Thisthe reason why you shouldn't post something like this on SP is out of respect for the Navajos and to save you own respect in the process
It doesn't change the fact that you climbed it or not, but think of it as an unwritten rule
Jason Halladay - Dec 6, 2010 6:11 pm - Voted 1/10
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisRe: climbing the formation but not posting a TR about it...
I think that's the high road to take if you're going to climb the formation. No need to spray about your ascent and diminish the adventure of future climbers by posting too much information. As many have noted, including yourself, this formation continues to see ascents each year. Its long, important history amongst climbers coupled with its amazing prominence make it an obvious objective for climbers.
Due to the access stickiness and poor rock quality, it should be regarded as a "post-doctorate" adventure climb. By that I mean to say it should be climbed by very experienced climbers and should be somewhat difficult to get information on the climbing route. This helps keep those that really shouldn't be up there from going up there and getting into trouble. Perhaps consider posting a photo or two of the route (but not an entire report) if you want to advertise the fact that you've been up there. Then those that are strongly considering climbing the formation can get in touch with you privately for more information.
I view the posting of this report as a bit reckless. Not only does it potentially jeopardize the "gray area access" that has allowed for the many discreet ascents that take place, it likely attracts the attention of climbers that would be out of their league on the formation. All it is going to take is one more major accident (I cringed when I read about your slip in the bowl) on the formation and the unofficial, lightly-regulated access that climbers currently exploit will be gone.
I understand the desire to take photos and write about the experience of climbing this formation. I do it for all of my best climbing experiences. This climb is an awesome experience and most likely one of better highlights of one's climbing experience. But climbing this formation includes a certain responsibility. Posting a trip report like this on such a high profile site is an abuse of that responsibility. Please swallow your pride about your accomplishment and consider removing the report and holding on to it to share with your closest climbing friends. It'll be a lot more special that way and will allow others going to climb this formation a bigger sense of adventure.
noahs213 - Dec 6, 2010 6:18 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisHere is why a TR probably should not be written on this.
It would give a ton of information and perhaps inspire so many other people to climb it on a climb that is quite dangerous. Navajo's consider it Taboo if someone dies on it which is why they "closed" it. The thing has seen just about 350 ascents since it was closed and it's pretty amazing no accidents have happened.
Jason:
Good point. I can see where your coming from. I'd HATE to see Ship Rock getting climbed every week. Accident waiting to happen and if an accident happened, that would not be good at all.
Best to stay clear.
Jason Halladay - Dec 6, 2010 6:26 pm - Voted 1/10
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisI want to add that I realize my comment could be construed as elitist or condescending but that's not my attitude about this. I simply have a strong belief regarding the responsibility of climbing this formation and what that responsibility entails.
So before you write off my comment, please really consider what I'm getting at and think about it for a moment. I mean no personal disrespect.
Jason Halladay - Dec 6, 2010 6:33 pm - Voted 1/10
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisThank you, Noah, for not posting a report about your climb. To be honest, based on your previous reports, I fully expected you to write a report and would have commented on it in the same way I have on this one. And it's not "jealously" like you suggest. Nor is it that the climbing community is looking to "shoot you down". See my comment above.
I'm looking at the bigger, "climbing community picture" and believe that reports like this on major sites can result in only bad things for the climbing community.
And while I don't doubt that the few Navajo's [sic] you have talked to think it's awesome, I'm willing to wager that you'd find the majority of Navajos would not be so stoked to hear about your climb of the formation.
CSUMarmot - Dec 6, 2010 6:44 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisFor whatever reason, it is better not to write about an off-limits destination, so you definitely saved yourself the trouble
A-Lex - Dec 6, 2010 7:55 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: My Thoughts On All ThisI still disagree with you guys about not posting this.
"the reason why you shouldn't post something like this on SP is out of respect for the Navajos and to save you own respect in the process"
I think they already showed disrespect to the Navajo population by climbing the sacred rock.
"I do agree a report can result in spreading the information out there and getting other people to climb it which I hate to see."
You say you hate to see others climb it - yet you yourself have climbed it? Really?
The point of it being posted is that people can see that not everyone agrees with an ascent of this formation and form their own opinion based on a large forum of other climber's opinions.
If they hear it around the campfire I would assume the desire to climb would likely be high. And the opposition to the climber's opinions about whether or not to climb it would not likely be around. Yet since this forum reaches many people, a better representation of climber population feelings on the matter can help any aspiring ascensionist make a more informed decision.
CSUMarmot - Dec 6, 2010 10:04 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: The ChiefA 1/10 vote is weighed more then a 10/10 vote (marginally) because the point is to not F up and piss everybody off. And the score of 0% is as it is because enough valuable contributors have down voted it 1/10, not because SP is censoring it
chugach mtn boy - Dec 7, 2010 12:29 am - Hasn't voted
Re: The Chief"...when you are using a nickname that seems a little bit on the racial side..."
LOL. Um, Mike, you don't know what a "chief" is in the Navy, do you?
Dave Daly - Dec 7, 2010 11:43 am - Voted 10/10
Piss OffNice job guys on gettin this done! Still on my "tick list" to do.
Want permission? I'll talk to my ex-wife's uncle (owns the property to the south that butts up to Shiprock). He chuckles at all this sneeky business. Sez he'll take a 6 pack of beer for any "troubles". HA!
McCannster - Dec 7, 2010 12:33 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Piss OffThat's kinda what I figured how most of the locals feel about this whole thing. "Crazy white people..."
PellucidWombat - Jan 4, 2011 10:12 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Piss OffWhile I personally disapprove of Mike's decision to climb the rock without at least attempting to ask permission or ascertain from the Navajos how the community is likely to feel (rather than whatever bureaucrat made the restriction), I think the community's attacks are way over the top.
First, there is already a TR of a climb on Ship Rock put up last year, but no one took offense then. It still enjoys a moderately high rating and no voice of disapproval. Maybe it's a community shame/embarrassment thing since this report made TROTW and had more public prominence? Some members seem to show this as their motive - climb it illegally and don't tell anyone, rather than making your own moral choice and standing by it. Mike shows integrity by doing this.
Second, I think a lot of the SP community was ignoring some of the finer points: e.g. the lack of signs at the site, lack of much local enforcement, reports from others that when 'caught' they were actually treated well, the frequency that it is still illegally climbed and the facts other brought up that make the closure sound more like a liability fear that locals don't care about than a sacred concern (as someone pointed out is more so on other rocks in the area). I'm really curious what the Navajo as a community really think, since I strongly suspect that the outrage might be overblown and misplaced.
There are plenty of Californians I know who flaunt the Big Sheep closure (now defunct!) or climb illegally on buildings or trespass on private land to climb peaks because personally they see some of these selectively illegal activities as morally OK and therefore fine to break those rules. The same might apply here. Just saying.
And putting words into these guys' mouths? How about a reasonable and rational discussion?! I didn't pick up any more of an attitude of dominating the rock, spraying about their accomplishments, or brush with the law than I do from many other reports on this site that have received high ratings and no condemnation.
Frankly I'd give the report a 5/10 for my disapproval of Mike's decision, but as a statement I'm adding 5 points back for my disapproval of others being so quick to judge.
Todd Gordon - Dec 7, 2010 12:39 pm - Hasn't voted
PleaseRespect the Navajo by sharing what you have with them;....your time, your thoughts, your food, your care, your ride, your house, your energy.....hell;...take a Navajo out climbing with you ..(I did many times....) The do -not -climb ban on the Res means nothing to most Navajos;...they are unaware of this law, and it does not play out in there day to day lives.....Go to the reservation and see for yourself just what is actually and truly going on there;....you will find some awesome people, make some cool new funky friends, have some great adventures, and climb some rad shit.....but go find out yourself as these lads did....and as I myself did when I moved there and lived there for 2 years of my life.....it's not what you read on the internet;...that is for sure........you will be surprised that the Navajo are cool, sharing, kind people with a good sense of humor, a wild spirit of adventure, a wicked desire to get booze, and alot of free time on their hands.......(just like most of my climbing friends here in California...come to think of it...).......surely nothing to be afraid of, ashamed of, bow down to, run away from......
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