chris_goulet - Aug 30, 2007 5:26 pm - Hasn't voted
She wouldn't allow you?
Hey Brad, I don't see a summit pic, so I guess she wouldn't allow you guys up. Congrats for a fine attempt! Do you feel the obsession building up? Looking forward to the rest of the TR. I'd like to read some emotion in there if you can. (Well, maybe with the heli, it might damp the emotions cuz it takes away from the build-up.)
Brad, I must say that I do consider flying in cheating, especially since my partners and I climbed Robson car to car in a crazy epic you can read about here titled "North Face Epic." But you have caused me to question exactly what "flying in" is. Those great climbers who need not be named who climbed the new route on the Emperor Face weren’t really climbing a mountain as much as attempting a new route. So, my argument is that if you fly in above the base of a mountain you are climbing a route, but if you start at the base you are climbing a mountain. I'm sure there are a million people on this site that will disagree with or find an issue with my rule I just made up and really didn't think much about, but it is a rule that I can live with. The biggest issue I have with flying in is that you miss out on the best part of the climb, the approach! But I do commend you for choosing to walk out. It is a long hike. Anyway, it is a good TR and great pictures. That mountain is not easy to climb, flying in or not. The weather in Canada is horrible.
Congratulations on climbing Robson car-to-car and thanks for the comments regarding my TR and photos.
As for the "flying in" critique that's your prerogative. You don't have to do it but please don't pass judgement on others based on your morality. It always amazes me when climbers with modern technical gear draw some line in the snow and say "hey that's cheating!". Here's a question, what isn't cheating?
I probably wasn't too clear in the post, but what I am trying to say is that I don't consider flying in "cheating" anymore. But I do believe there needs to be a distinction between flying in and climbing from the base just as there are many distinctions in climbing between what gear is used or the style of the attempt. I agree with you that climbers need to be careful about what they call cheating when in reality the attempt was just a different style then they are accustomed to...this I am guilty of.
Perhaps I read your comments wrong with respect to flying in and, if so, I'm sorry. To be honest I still don't get what all the fuss is about. To me climbing is climbing. People should feel free to do what they want and it shouldn't matter. Of course, that all depends on whether or not we feel we should be comparing ourselves to others. For example, I've been to Aconcagua several times and used mules to move gear in while others carried most of theirs. Did I cheat using mules? Maybe, but that's the norm down there. I've met many climbers who carried in most of their gear (but not all) simply because they couldn't afford the mules. Was their climb more difficult? Hell yes. Do I respect them for their effort. Sure do and I told them as much. To me having respect for another's accomplishments far outweighs what I do.
I think you just pinned it. It really is about the level of respect. I respect Conrad Kain's successful attempt chopping all those steps all the way to the summit way more than I respect my own attempt, but should that take anything away from my attempt? I don't think so. And I don't want to take anything away from your attempt either. Once you start to compare yourself with others it becomes a slippery slope. And even the most extreme purest will have his own issues. For example, did you make your clothes from wool you spun from sheep you sheared, or did you buy your jacket at REI?
Hmmm, make my own clothes. That reminds me of the story about Earl Denman's attempt on Everest. Good old first Canadian attempt. Do you know the story? 1947? Had to sneak in to Tibet dressed as a Tibetan? Almost arrested by the border patrol? Walked 300 miles in and then out with no boots!? Climbed with Tenzing Norgay (when Tenzing was young). Made it to the North Col before their equipment let them down. Denman had made all of it himself, tents included.
Been over this a zillion times. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but show a little class at least. Not everyone climbs according to your ethic nor should they.
chris_goulet - Aug 30, 2007 5:26 pm - Hasn't voted
She wouldn't allow you?Hey Brad, I don't see a summit pic, so I guess she wouldn't allow you guys up. Congrats for a fine attempt! Do you feel the obsession building up? Looking forward to the rest of the TR. I'd like to read some emotion in there if you can. (Well, maybe with the heli, it might damp the emotions cuz it takes away from the build-up.)
Brad Marshall - Aug 31, 2007 12:12 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: She wouldn't allow you?No summit pick Chris but I gained a lot of experience about this one. Will definitiely return.
Andinistaloco - Aug 31, 2007 10:32 pm - Voted 10/10
Maybe next time...but glad you made it back okay. Killer pics, too!
Brad Marshall - Sep 1, 2007 12:51 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Maybe next time...Hey Walt, thanks and you look really good for someone of your age!
mtnman455 - May 8, 2009 5:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Flying in?Brad, I must say that I do consider flying in cheating, especially since my partners and I climbed Robson car to car in a crazy epic you can read about here titled "North Face Epic." But you have caused me to question exactly what "flying in" is. Those great climbers who need not be named who climbed the new route on the Emperor Face weren’t really climbing a mountain as much as attempting a new route. So, my argument is that if you fly in above the base of a mountain you are climbing a route, but if you start at the base you are climbing a mountain. I'm sure there are a million people on this site that will disagree with or find an issue with my rule I just made up and really didn't think much about, but it is a rule that I can live with. The biggest issue I have with flying in is that you miss out on the best part of the climb, the approach! But I do commend you for choosing to walk out. It is a long hike. Anyway, it is a good TR and great pictures. That mountain is not easy to climb, flying in or not. The weather in Canada is horrible.
Brad Marshall - May 8, 2009 11:06 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?Congratulations on climbing Robson car-to-car and thanks for the comments regarding my TR and photos.
As for the "flying in" critique that's your prerogative. You don't have to do it but please don't pass judgement on others based on your morality. It always amazes me when climbers with modern technical gear draw some line in the snow and say "hey that's cheating!". Here's a question, what isn't cheating?
mtnman455 - May 12, 2009 12:48 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?I probably wasn't too clear in the post, but what I am trying to say is that I don't consider flying in "cheating" anymore. But I do believe there needs to be a distinction between flying in and climbing from the base just as there are many distinctions in climbing between what gear is used or the style of the attempt. I agree with you that climbers need to be careful about what they call cheating when in reality the attempt was just a different style then they are accustomed to...this I am guilty of.
Brad Marshall - May 12, 2009 6:43 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?Perhaps I read your comments wrong with respect to flying in and, if so, I'm sorry. To be honest I still don't get what all the fuss is about. To me climbing is climbing. People should feel free to do what they want and it shouldn't matter. Of course, that all depends on whether or not we feel we should be comparing ourselves to others. For example, I've been to Aconcagua several times and used mules to move gear in while others carried most of theirs. Did I cheat using mules? Maybe, but that's the norm down there. I've met many climbers who carried in most of their gear (but not all) simply because they couldn't afford the mules. Was their climb more difficult? Hell yes. Do I respect them for their effort. Sure do and I told them as much. To me having respect for another's accomplishments far outweighs what I do.
mtnman455 - May 13, 2009 12:52 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?I think you just pinned it. It really is about the level of respect. I respect Conrad Kain's successful attempt chopping all those steps all the way to the summit way more than I respect my own attempt, but should that take anything away from my attempt? I don't think so. And I don't want to take anything away from your attempt either. Once you start to compare yourself with others it becomes a slippery slope. And even the most extreme purest will have his own issues. For example, did you make your clothes from wool you spun from sheep you sheared, or did you buy your jacket at REI?
Thanks for the tread. I enjoyed it.
Brad Marshall - May 13, 2009 3:05 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?Hmmm, make my own clothes. That reminds me of the story about Earl Denman's attempt on Everest. Good old first Canadian attempt. Do you know the story? 1947? Had to sneak in to Tibet dressed as a Tibetan? Almost arrested by the border patrol? Walked 300 miles in and then out with no boots!? Climbed with Tenzing Norgay (when Tenzing was young). Made it to the North Col before their equipment let them down. Denman had made all of it himself, tents included.
mtnman455 - May 14, 2009 3:23 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Flying in?Wow, I haven't heard that story. Sounds epic. What an experience.
Brad Marshall - Sep 8, 2010 12:44 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Give me a breakBeen over this a zillion times. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but show a little class at least. Not everyone climbs according to your ethic nor should they.