JD - Apr 21, 2014 3:28 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4I think Jacob has a point in that class 4 is fuzzy. It can be anything from tricky class 3 to 5.7. But that doesn't mean it isn't a useful grade. It's just fuzzy. You have to approach it that way, as an especially fuzzy grade. All grades are like that to a point and there are endless discussions about whether a route is 5.10c or 11a or class 2 or 3. That's the nature of grades because they depend on subjective evaluation. Even when there is a high degree of consensus there is still disagreement and inconsistency with other routes of the same grade. Fuzziness.
So on the one hand he has point. But ultimately his point is moot. You can get rid of class 4, change the system entirely or make it more detailed. But there really isn't much you can do about the fuzziness. To better understand a route one needs additional layers of description. For technical routes this usually takes the form of a topo and beta. For mountaineering grades like class 3 and 4 which are often too long and convoluted for a topo it's typically described with words. Adding prefixes or suffixes to numbers is confusing and will only get you so far anyway.
Someone asked me about a route I scrambled earlier this year in Australia. I couldn't remember what the locals rated it or if they even gave it an actual numerical rating. But I thought about it and told my friend it felt like class 3/4. Fuzziness! I looked it up later and the Aussies give it a rating of 5 on the Australian scale. Class 3-4 would translate to about Australian 1 or 2 whereas Australian 5 is about the same as our 5.2. So my estimate was a bit less than theirs, but pretty close. And if it's 5.2 it's a heck of lot easier than the 5.2 routes I've climbed in Joshua Tree but a lot further from the car. Fuzziness.
jacobsmith - Apr 21, 2014 12:56 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4Just to clarify my position with regard to this exchange -
I do not believe that any rating is an objective attribute of a piece of rock, it describes a relationship, not a reality.
The problem with "class 4" is how I see it being used, both by the climbers I encounter and the instructional manuals I consult.
As I hope I have shown, its application is illogical, inconsistent, and dysfunctional. That is not to say that someone else can't disagree, only that I have increasingly found it more deceptive then helpful, i.e. the more I climb the less it makes sense; and I've done a shitload of class 3-4 scrambling (looking at you Sierra Ledge Rat).
In a wider sense, the problem with class 4 is the problem with any quantified grade, and it is a problem I see no easy way around. We need to be able to accurately convey the difficulty of a climb, yet we have no good way of doing this. grades as they currently exist work great on a small scale, individual crags, individual climbers, but they scale up very badly. What I have suggested is one way (actually two ways depending on how you define YDS) YDS might be made marginally less arbitrary and weird, it is in no way a perfect solution, or one that I fully believe should be implemented.
JD - Apr 21, 2014 4:30 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4Jacob, all you've succeeded in showing is that class 4 is inconsistent. Your proposed solution of feature prefixes doesn't address that inconsistency. There is no real reason to believe it would clarify the confusion some have about class 4.
jacobsmith - Apr 21, 2014 4:32 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4Indeed, the prefixes were a solution to the wider problem of grade ambiguity that, while related philosophically to the class 4 problem, is not the same issue.
My only solution to the class 4 problem is to stop calling things class 4.
asmrz - Apr 22, 2014 12:31 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4Let's go back to basics then:
Class 1 - up hill trail
Class 2 - cross country steep uphill
Class 3 - scramble up rocky terrain, use of hands required for balance and progress, exposure, fall will result (at a minimum) in an injury
Class 4 - steep to vertical broken terrain, use of technical climbing techniques required, significant exposure, fall would be deadly, rope might be required by some.
That is how it was originally described in the 1930's. What do you find wrong with that? Too soft? Too hard? Not clear enough?
Again there is nothing wrong with the system. The problem is with us, people.
Also using the Sierra Club California ratings elsewhere in the world and never having the experience of the original ratings, puts everything upside down, so to speak.
Same with YDS. If you don't really know what the original YDS ratings felt like, you have no real connection to the system.
I say if this "problem" bothers you, go climb at the source of theses systems, The High Sierra for the class 3-4, Tahquitz Rock in Southern California for YDS and early Yosemite climbs (up to 5.10) as well. That will, I'm sure, offer you some perspective.
And regarding the word "ambiguity", any technical rock climber must have the benefit of judgement which is one of the most important tools to have in one's pack.
With judgement, we can adjust to any conditions and situations we perceive to be out of "the norm". That includes 4th class that feels like a sure 5th...
jacobsmith - Apr 22, 2014 1:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4Saying that there is nothing wrong with the system but that there is only something wrong with us doesn't make sense, the system exists for our use, if it does not work for us there is something wrong with it.
You cannot expect everyone to base their idea of YDS on one crag in California, there is no reason to privilege that area's standards over any others. I see no reason for that kind of historical dogmatism.
The problem, as I have describes it, is that modern ideas of low 5th and 3rd class meet without the need for an intervening grade, and therefore that grade has come to mean something else entirely, usually either "it was trivial" or "I was sketched out."
I am fully aware that this was not a problem when the Sierra Club created the system, but times have changed and our rating systems should follow.
What bothers me is mostly the whole idea of giving numbers to climbs, that's the ambiguity. "9" - what does 9 mean? it means harder than 8 and easier than 10, harder than what 8, easier than what 10? numbered grades encourage us to think of climbing difficulty as one linear scale, and with so many different types of rock, that simply does not work.
asmrz - Apr 22, 2014 8:01 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4There is nothing wrong with class 4
There are a few people who refuse to accept the plain fact. Sorry to have to tell you directly, it is people (the few of you) who need to adjust, not the system.
Regarding the second issue you raise:
In my 48 years of climbing, I met whole lot of good climbers from all of the world. After spending a few days here on Tahquitz and in Yosemite, the thing I hear quite often from the first time visitors is, "man these ratings are tough. I never knew 5.8 could be that hard"...The YDS rating of this climb is totally off...
But how can it be, when this is the crag, where these ratings were invented? It cannot be over or underrated, it is the original and true YDS rating. The response I usually get is, well if you put it that way...
If you never climbed in an area where the original ratings are in play, you have little to compare, let alone provide reasoning for your opinions. It is all theory or worse. It's like flying over Grand Canyon at 35,000' and later telling people that it is just a ditch...
Those Tahquitz and Yosemite ratings form our judgement about the YDS everywhere else in the granite world. If you didn't climb in those two places, what valid points can you offer about the YDS?
Lastly, your notes about the numbers and your confusion with them is really perplexing. I trust you are a climber, Jacob?
Most of us have absolutely no problem with the YDS and most of us know what .7 .9, 10 or 11b feels like. Some might even get instant sweaty hands thinking about that certain 10+ ...
We could invent another system. It might describe the climb more clearly:
A few sketchy boulder moves up a greasy grove, smearing move at the top followed by heal hook and an awkward mantle to a tiny ledge. A strenuous lie back moves followed by a wide overhanging stem in a corner gets you to a large overhang. Desperate thin crack leads up this to easier climbing. 50 meter pitch.
How hard?
About 5.5
P.S. I'm off to Scotland to sample their local YDS standards. I will be back in early August. Cheers and good climbing, Alois.
jacobsmith - Apr 22, 2014 8:27 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4The basic difference between our positions is that I do not believe that YDS should remain static. 5.8 is just something someone made up, meaning that a 5.8 in tahquitz is no more "really 5.8" than a 5.8 anywhere else. same issue with class 4, I think the system should change if it is being used badly, regardless of its historical legitimacy.
There's a Sting song that seems applicable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RprN07SfFzc&feature=kp
And yes, I am indeed a climber.
Most people do think they know what various ratings feel like, and then they start climbing and it's a constant barrage of "easy for the grade," "hard for the grade," "no way that's 5.X". This really bothers me, and I do it as much as anyone. As I have said multiple times, I don't have a good replacement for YDS up my sleeve, but I do think there is room for additional, qualitative, aspects in our grade system.
One of the most significant problems with the system is that it equates climbs that have nothing in common. It's not just difficulty level, on 5.9 crack one can expect a certain variety of moves, one 5.10 crack a different variety, but the moves required for a 5.9 crack have nothing in common with the moves required for a 5.9 face climb, or a 5.9 slab. Thus the changes I proposed.
In essence, I think grades are kind of stupid and I wish we could do away with them, but we can't, so all I'm trying to do is find a way of making them less frustrating. If you or anyone else doesn't find grades annoying as hell I envy you, but I don't think I am alone in wishing we spent more time talking about climbs themselves and less about the abstracted numbers we attach to them.
JD - Apr 22, 2014 9:28 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4I think you expect too much from ratings.
Your prefix idea isn't well fleshed out; would it apply only to the crux of each pitch or to sections? Would the first pitch of Hardd in Yosemite be C.11a or P.9/OH.10a/F.10c/C.11a? Modern topos are already information rich.
I could get on board replacing class 4 with 5.0-5.2 or something like that. I don't think it will make you less frustrated with grades though. Perhaps the solution for you is to ignore grades; some people do this.
Robbins tried to change the system 50 years ago and got nowhere.
midi510 - Nov 13, 2019 7:18 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Nothing wrong with class 4I've read a lot of these comments and tend to agree with you. I didn't actually know anyone used a rope on "Class 3", but have read some class descriptions indicating so. I always (been climbing 40 years; led .10s, followed .11s, tr'd some .12s) thought Class 4 (easy climbing, pulling with hands) was a little more technical than Class 3 (scrambling, hands now and then, for balance), but mostly more exposed. Class 3 is more exposed than Class 2 (technical hiking?) just because it's steeper and only people with an issue with heights would be seriously concerned. I think the difference between 4th and 5th becomes more a matter of technique, where one needs to actually think about or consider where to put hands and feet. 5th is where you might fall because of a mistake in technique, whereas if you fall on 4th, it's probably because you're sketched.
These days, I'm way more into snow and ice couloirs and alpine routes where I don't need to carry a rack and rope. Two weeks ago I solo'd the North Couloir on North Peak and because I read that it was a 3rd class scramble to the summit after that, was super stoked. If I read that it was 4th class, I probably would have traversed over to the SW slope and walked up. Now on the other hand, on Bear Creek Spire two months ago, I was on the East Ridge, mostly 2nd and 3rd, but finding some easy unexposed 5th class moves and moved right of the route to intersect the upper North Arete and finish on 4th. I think I know fairly well what to expect when I read route descriptions and I'm thankful to have access to them.
ExcitableBoy - May 10, 2014 2:02 pm - Voted 1/10
HmmmIt seems you are having a difficult time grappling with grading. First calling Godzilla sandbagged, and now this? Why all the consternation? There are hard climbs at every grade, the grades are subjective by nature and this is something most of us who've played the game awhile have just learned to accept.
Matt Lemke - May 10, 2014 5:16 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: HmmmEB but why is this something we all just have to accept? I think it would be better if we completely did away with ratings altogether. If I am talking to a friend at home or whatever and I ask him about a climb he did that I haven't even heard of, I would rather hear that it is a vertical and sustained hand to wide hands crack with a couple rest stances on some chicken-heads rather than hear "oh...its just a 5.9"
Can you understand our point here?
midi510 - Nov 13, 2019 6:21 am - Hasn't voted
More ComplicationAnother complication is, how do you prefix a route that starts out slab, then has face climbing, then a nice finger splitter, and finishes with an offthwidth?
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